“Be Honest, Grow With Your Students”: An Interview with Roselyn Baronia on her experiences with AI, Assessment, and a New Oral Defense (Part 3)

In the final installment of this three-part interview, Roselyn Baronia shares her students’ reactions and her reflections after she introduced an oral defense into a coding lab in her AP Computer Science A (CSA) course. In part one, Baronia described her background and the problems she encountered with the students that made her realize that something had to change. Baronia has been teaching at the Tsinglan School, a private international school in Dongguan, China, since 2020. She’s also the Head of the Computer Science department, the Technology Coordinator, and the chair of the school’s AI committee. This interview has been edited for length and clarity and formatted by Adelaida Kim. 

As a resource for teachers interested in adapting an oral defense into their work, a public website provides access to some of Baronia’s materials from the virtual pet project, including a timeline, a lesson overview, student examples, and a rubric.

For previous posts related to AI, see: Could concerns about the academic pressure on students in China lead to real changes in conventional schooling? Stability & change in the education system in China (Part 4); Scanning the global headlines for recent news on AI, schools, and education: Rapid growth in uses, users, and concerns.

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Thomas Hatch (TH): You’ve described for us why you created the oral defense for your students’ coding lab and how the oral defense worked; can you tell us about the students’ reaction? Once they had completed their presentations and participated as panelists — what were their reflections?

Roselyn Baronia (RB): Generally, their reflections showed the students found the oral defense helpful in terms of preparing them for their external exam and understanding the coding process. That’s really a big thing for me, because that’s what I want. I want them not to just submit a project, but to understand how they were able to come up with that project. The reality is that in the future, they will really be using AI when they’re working. But making choices — why are you creating this kind of collection instead of just a simple variable, for instance — it’s important that they understand why, justify their choices, and consider what alternatives there might be. That’s what they were saying in the feedback. They were also saying they found it very helpful and want to do it again, but there are also some students who felt that some of the questions — coming from their peers — were not technical enough. Some of them said they hoped the audience could ask questions. But overall, they are looking forward to doing it again.

“I want them not to just submit a project, but to understand how they were able to come up with that project.”

TH: What about your experience? You told us a little about the different kinds of presentations, but as you were watching the presentations and then as you reflected on the whole process — what did you notice? What stood out to you?

RB: I was so proud of my students. I can’t tell you how proud I am to see them like that. I could see how excited they were; they were beaming with excitement. And even the teachers were very happy, saying, ‘Wow, I didn’t know that it would be this fulfilling to hear the students explain the reasons why they chose this or that functionality.” That was really good, because for instance, some students would add a feature and say, “I did this because I also have cats at home” — they could relate it to real life. They’d say, “I added this feature because when my cat keeps playing with other cats, they’ll be happy, but they’ll also get tired. So in my program, I created this variable that keeps track of the happiness of the pet, and then I had to create a formula so that it would impact the level of energy and the level of thirst of the pet.” It’s amazing when you hear this from the kids — how creative they can be. You can’t help but laugh while they’re sharing. I’m really, really proud of what they did.

Takeaways from the oral defense and implications for the future 

TH: We’re conducting this interview only a few weeks since you held the oral defense. What are you taking away? Are you planning to make changes in the future? 

RB: Next year I think I’ll have mini oral defenses throughout the year. I might do this in pairs — giving each pair 5–10 minutes for small projects or small coding activities where they’ll have a defense among each other. That way they’ll practice how to ask questions, feel more confident doing this kind of activity, and see the value of understanding algorithms and problem decomposition. Problem decomposition is actually one of the key issues I see in computer science. Students get too excited and immediately open the Integrated Development Environment (IDE) and start coding without even knowing what the problem is. I think this is not just a computer science issue; it’s connected to math as well. I spoke to the math teachers and told them maybe we can look at strengthening the skill of decomposing a problem by giving students more structure. For instance, I tell them to find all nouns and put them in a rectangle and find all verbs and put them in circles — verbs and nouns connected to programming. I think this is a very, very important skill that students should master if we want them to be better in computing.

TH: Where in your schedule — in your labs or your PBLs — would you put these mini oral defenses?

RB: Probably during the coding activities. For example, in every unit, we have coding activities to develop students’ skills followed by a coding challenge. I have two 40-minute blocks. In the first 40-minute block, 25 minutes is for coding activities intended to build student skills. In the second 40-minute block, I usually give a programming challenge — the students now have the skills, so I level up the coding activity. There’s less structure for this challenge, and the students really have to think about how to solve the problem. That’s probably when they can do the mini oral defense. I’m thinking they would have these mini-defenses maybe twice per topic, because I don’t have too much time. Or perhaps I could have them record their work and put it on a SharePoint site where classmates can comment or ask questions and interact through the platform, so as not to take time from the class. 

TH: Any other takeaways or ways that this experience is affecting your thinking or planning for the rest of this year or next year?

RB: I think I can say that if we involve students in the process and are honest with them about what we’re seeing, they will also see the value of what we want to achieve. This is what I experienced. I told them I was really concerned, and I stated some facts with them. Because of that, students felt the sincerity that there really is a need for modifying how we do things in the class. 

The students were very helpful, and they were the ones who actually came up with many of the ideas. They would say: “Miss, I think it’s going to be better if we do it this way.” So, my key takeaway is: be honest, grow with your students. It’s okay to make mistakes, and you can admit it with your students and laugh about it. I know a lot of teachers are very much afraid of using technology in class or of pointing out problems when using technology, because they themselves are not confident about making mistakes in front of their students. But I think the more we become honest with our students, the more we become reachable, relatable, and more human. And that makes the class more exciting and more colorful.

“[T]he more we become honest with our students, the more we become reachable, relatable, the more human we become for them. And that makes the class more exciting and more colorful.”

TH: Wonderful. What were some of the other ideas that came from the students that you might implement?

RB: As I said, one of the things is the students said they should be able to ask more questions, which is a really good idea. They also suggested inviting teachers from other departments. This virtual pet lab is similar to creating a Tamagotchi, and they were thinking of what it would be like to sell their apps. One student said, “What if we could invite a business teacher to listen to this?” I said, “Yeah, that’s a good idea; maybe we can do that.” Those ideas are helpful because I can see that they also want to connect what we’re doing in the classroom with other disciplines, and I think that’s what we also aim for. It’s good to be hearing it from the students themselves.

The limits of time for co-designing activities with students and implementing new assessments

TH: Are you going to include more opportunities in your classes for students to share their ideas about assessment or other things?

RB: To be honest with you, I don’t think I can do that too often because we have so many interruptions, and so many things to do to prepare them for the external exam. But, whenever possible, I already involve my students in designing activities or assessments because I want them to own their learning. Aside from what I’ve shared during the interview, I use the time that I walk around to informally gather their thoughts about the activities and assessments. I also ask them to reflect every time they do coding activities. They write these in their notebooks – writing errors, how did they correct it, key takeaways, etc. and then how they think they can best showcase their learning on this matter. I also reach out to students during the summer and ask them then, because I already know who my students will be. We have a course selection platform that students use, so I know who’s going to be in my class. I usually reach out to them before the holiday, and I assign them some homework or readings on certain topics, so I can save time and have more time for other things. I need to identify what topics I think students can actually do themselves.

TH: Talking about the limited time, a lot of teachers are concerned that they can’t add anything like an oral defense because there’s no time. How did you make the time to add in the oral defense? What did you drop?

RB: I actually did not drop anything. I just used a flipped approach and recorded things. For differentiation, I have different ways for my students to learn a topic. Some students who are already skilled don’t need to listen to my lecture — they can immediately jump into programming activities. But some students will watch my lecture at home so that when they come to school, they can do the activity. So I did not drop anything, but I would say I tried to speed things up.

But also, before the holidays, I will explain to my students: “We have this laboratory coming up, and I know that you like doing this, and I want you to have fun. But for this to happen, I’m sorry, but there are things you have to do during the holiday. Is that fine with you?” And they will say “yes.” Again, I try to be as honest as possible with them instead of dictating. The more they know the reasoning behind something, the more they cooperate.

Oral assessment, differentiation and support for language learners

TH: You mentioned differentiation, so I wanted to go back to that student you mentioned in the second part of our interview who you said was struggling with English. I think one of the biggest concerns about oral defenses and oral assessments is that whether it’s a home language or a second language, students’ communication or language abilities can get in the way of their ability to show their technical skills or content knowledge. How did you deal with that with the oral defense?

RB: That was a real issue for us. For the oral defense, I explained to the teachers who served as panelists and who could only speak English that I allow the student panelists to ask questions in Chinese, since they know this student is struggling in English. Then the student panelists would also relay the question to us in English so we could understand. The other teachers and I gave our questions in English, and I asked the student, “Do you need someone to translate this for you?” Sometimes he would say “yes,” but most of the time he would say, “No, Miss Rose, I know, I understand.” I could really see how much he was trying. He would bring a dictionary with him all the time. He was really working very hard to remember vocabulary words. When I speak to him, I try to repeat those words so he gets used to them — and those vocabulary words are the ones used in the external exam as well. When he tried to respond, he couldn’t always come up with a full sentence, but I told him, “That’s fine. If you want to answer in Chinese, I’ll ask your classmates to translate.”

In the end, I don’t think assessing him was more difficult than assessing other students — his coding abilities came through. Every time I wanted to emphasize something, I would ask his classmates to say it in Chinese. But before doing that, I would ask him first if he needed a translation. Because of a good connection with him — I would say we have a very good teacher-student relationship — he would honestly tell me whether he needed translation or not. I don’t see that as a problem at all.

Implications for AI and assessment across classes

TH: In your role as technology coordinator — not just in your coding class, but in the school — what else have you noticed about the use of AI and assessment? What are you learning and what will you be changing as a result?

RB: Reflecting on our various efforts to improve AI integration, I have come to realize the need for more explicit and structured guidance. Previously, for faculty, I shared sample tasks with simple tables indicating where AI use was permitted or restricted, or adjustments to assessment guidelines. However, I now see that this level of guidance is not sufficient—teachers require more concrete support.  Similar to how we scaffold learning and make thinking visible for students, I believe we need to apply the same approach for teachers. Recently, I have been developing step-by-step guidance, such as:

• how to initiate conversations with students about AI,
• which tools to recommend,
• how to guide students in crafting effective and appropriate prompts, and
• how to support student reflection on their use of AI.

I am also applying this structured approach to develop resources for teacher-related tasks. With the help of the AI Committee, I’ve created a presentation and some support for lesson planning. Rather than simply advising teachers to “think before using AI,” we are explicitly outlining what prior thinking is expected and what data or inputs need to be prepared before engaging with AI tools.

In a draft policy I submitted to the principal, I also wrote that when teachers are using AI in the classroom, at the very least, they have to have students reflect on the kind of results AI has generated, because this is aligned to the different research studies I’ve read. That’s also part of the reason I created the summative assessment guideline and the oral defense — to show teachers that there should be another way of using AI without negatively impacting the critical thinking skills of students. And I can prove that. In the unit test connected to the Virtual Pet Lab with the oral defense, there was only one student who got less than 15 out of 18 — that’s really good. 

[T]hat’s the reason I created the summative assessment guideline and the oral defense — to show teachers that there should be another way of using AI without negatively impacting the critical thinking skills of students.

TH: What you mentioned about the teachers in the school is fascinating. One of the things I’m struggling with as a teacher is just keeping up with which assignments can now be done by AI and what I should do instead. Do you have a sense of which activities we should no longer assign because students are just using AI to do them?

RB:  There is a framework from Common Sense — I’m also a Common Sense Education Ambassador – and the framework is more about breaking down the task. For example, if a student is creating an essay, what are the stages? The first stage is brainstorming, the second stage is writing the first draft, and so on. The teacher has to break down the task, and then there’s a column that says ‘AI is allowed’ and ‘AI is not allowed,’ so the teacher marks it so students know exactly when AI can be used. And when AI is allowed — for example, in the first draft column — the teacher has to provide structure. I showed this in my training to teachers: I will have a table where on the left side you paste your draft, and the second part of the table shows how AI changed or modified the student’s draft. That document also includes what prompts were used, what parts of the AI-generated output the student accepted, what parts they didn’t, and why.